Shri Mataji's interview with Greek TV
Interview on a Greek TV with Vagianatos, Athens (Greece), April 27th, 1993
Interviewer: Good evening, it is very strong feeling that so many times we are in another country although we are in this country. Tonight we have the opportunity of really make a long travel. A long travel in wisdom, in distance, in space, in our hearts, in truth. This is all the elements that are concentrated in the presence of a Holy Mother that we have invited here, and we are very grateful that we have You…
Shri Mataji: Thank you…
Interviewer: … all the way from one of the oldest civilizations. You know, we are very proud that we are members of a very old civilization…
Shri Mataji: Good.
Interviewer: … And very rarely we realize how other old civilizations shine in other places on the world. So we do welcome You here along with the truth You carry for us. We would like to ask You about this truth, and the way You see in this same world, this other country which is every country which is our heart.
Shri Mataji: We have to know one thing, what is the truth is. The truth is actually we are not this body, mind, intellect, emotions, ego, but we are the Spirit. And in our evolutionary process we have reached the stage of human awareness, and beyond this there’s a little breakthrough by which we have to become the Spirit. That’s very simple and can be done very easily for people who are seeking the truth.
Interviewer: How would you describe the system of your thought, the system that you approach to our hearts and our minds?
Shri Mataji: Yes. You’ll be amazed to know that in Greece people called a bone Sacrum, which is the triangular bone, and that means they knew there was something sacred about that bone. Now this bone has got within itself a residual power which is for our connection to this all-pervading divine power.
All the scriptures have talked about all-pervading divine love and everything, but we have never felt it before. It’s a surprising thing that we take all living things for granted, for our heart beats, we don’t know how it beats. Then you see the flowers grow, we don’t know how it grows. But if you understand that there is some power which is doing all this living work then the time has come for us to know it, to feel it, to understand it, and also to use it.
Interviewer: How do You think that people have arrived in so many conclusions that they call religions, and what is the connection between this way of approaching ourselves to the truth which is one, and Your old tradition in Your country which I assume is India?
Shri Mataji: No, in all the religions and scriptures is written that you have to transform, you have to be born again. Every religion has said that. This is not only that any particular religion has said it. Every religion, even Islam has said you have to be a Wali. Even Christianity has said you are to be born again. I mean there’s no religion which has not said that, but it is not just a certificate. You cannot take just a certificate “I am born again”.
It is something that actualizes by which you develop a new state, a new state of your mind, state of your being by which you become the Spirit – and there are powers of the Spirit which you manifest. It’s not just talking and giving sermons and lectures, but it is something that’s an actualization, is a living process.
Interviewer: I think we Greeks belong to the what we call the East part of philosophy, of religions. This is a system which is mostly esoteric, this is a very Greek word which is seeking inside.
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Interviewer: I think this is quite relevant and close to the very ancient Indian tradition.
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course.
Interviewer: Now how close do You think these, these very old religious systems are, I am talking about the Pagan, our own ancestors [Shri Mataji: “Yes”] before Christianity, even the Jewish or all the other, Hindu, Buddhist and the rest You know.
Shri Mataji: Yeah. You see, specially in Greece you had the ancient system of worshipping the Goddess Athena. Now in Sanskrit Atha means the primordial, so to us She is the Primordial Mother, that we call in our language as Adi Shakti, you see, is the Primordial Mother. And She has, you must have seen a snake in Her shield and also in Her hand that is the symbol of this power within you, which lies dormant in your, in your triangular bone called as sacrum.
So the Greeks knew about it, no doubt, because otherwise they would not have called Her Athena and She must have been, in our scriptures She is described very well, not only that but Greece is called as Manipur Dwipe, means the navel of the universe.
Interviewer: Yes. And certainly it was a surprise for me to see that You come here to preach our own ancient Gods.
Shri Mataji: Yes, it’s true.
Interviewer: Now, what are You telling us about Athena, is that the serpents, serpents with Greek gods are very familiar creatures…
Shri Mataji: Yes, but you see such a snake…
Interviewer: … have to do with medicine and others. Now what is the message of Athena coming from You again nowadays?
Shri Mataji: Athena is the one that, she is the one who was trying to push Her spear into the fontanel bone of Zeus. Now that’s exactly what Sahaja Yoga is. We think – not we believe, and that we have proved also – that this power which we call as Kundalini, because it is like a serpent going into coils [Interviewer: “Yes”], because it’s an energy that moves like a serpent. You see, more symbolic it is, not the serpent actually.
So this is the power which is the reflection of Athena within us and when she rises she goes and hits here and opens out your fontanel bone. That’s actualization of the baptism, as described in Christianity; by that then you are connected with that subtle energy which is all-pervading. For the first time you start feeling that cool breeze in your hand which is described is the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is the same as Athena, but I think Christians could not connect it with that. She is the same.
Interviewer: We see that all these sanctities along history come and repeat themselves and transfigurate themselves according to the tradition of peoples.
Shri Mataji: Of course.
Interviewer: Now You have referred to Yoga and of course in this part of the world we are more or less familiar. Now for those who are less, I would like You to found what we are talking now in this Yoga and give us some ideas about the wide spectrum of what You would call Yoga.
Shri Mataji: You see, Yoga is when you unite, is the union between your Self with the divine is Yoga, That’s the real spiritual yoga. All other yogas, like physical yoga and all that, is a wee part of what one Patanjali wrote. Is a very wee part that to cleanse your body and all that is there. But there is no need now to do all that.
First in the modern times what if I have done any work is this: that people used to get self realization, alright, but one Master had only one disciple. Gradually it started in a way that they started talking about it. From the, I think, 12th century it became more open. But it has been there for years together. Now when they started talking about it, they couldn’t give en mass realization. They could only give to one person. So the only thing that I have done is to work out the permutations and combinations of human nature by which I have understood how to give en mass realization.
And that’s the only achievement of modern Sahaja Yoga. Sahaja Yoga is an ancient system in India, also must have been here because the way the sacrum bone is there and she is having all those things. But the practice of that may not have been so open, might have been secretive in those days, when they were giving realization to people. And it’s the ancient times, thousands of years back, so. But in India we have still maintained all those traditions and things, and we still respect and worship the Mother Goddess. Athena we respect. She is called as Adi Shakti, name is different, and she is the Holy Ghost according to us. Now this works out, is in everyone.
It’s your own power within you and it works out and it rises and pierces through your fontanel bone area. It does, it actualizes the experience which is described and that’s what one has to feel, otherwise it is just talk, talk, talk, talk. Any religion has become nothing but talk, so you see, people are now fed up. They think what is this promising, claiming, nothing happens to us, we are just the same, our forefathers were such and we are just the same. But now the time has come. It’s a new age as I say to achieve that state, a new state, where you become.
Firstly you become thoughtlessly aware, means you live in the present. Thoughts come to you from the past and from the future. You are dancing on the cusp of the thoughts. But when this happens, the thoughts are separated and in between the thoughts, there’s a space which we call as the present, which is reality. Present is the reality because the past is finished and the future doesn’t exist so you live in the present. When you live in the present, you start growing spiritually. And that’s what happens to you first, that you become thoughtlessly aware.
The second thing happens to you that you start feeling that cool breeze on your hands. Now it’s medically you know that these are the endings (Mother shows the finger tips) of the sympathetic nervous system. So what happens that when, when you get your realization, you start feeling this cool breeze all along and you start feeling those things on your finger tips.
Now supposing if you have a problem in anyone of these centers, there are seven centers, five, six and seven (Mother demonstrates in her hand the five fingers, then six at the base of the palm and seven in the center of the hand). Immediately you feel it on your finger… You don’t have to go to doctor for diagnosis, immediately you know.
Now if you know how to cure it, then physically you can be cured, mentally you can be cured, also all our human problems or I should say all the world’s problems are because of human beings. And all our human problems are because of our centers which are within us.
So when this power rises, She nourishes them, She integrates them and corrects them so we get physical, mental, emotional problems solved. And then you feel your own peace within yourself. But the second thing that you achieve is a new awareness which we call as collective consciousness.
That is where you can feel not only your own centers but also the centers of others. Now, when you grow spiritually then sitting down here you can feel the centers of anyone, sitting down here you can correct the centers of other people, but you have to grow. But in the beginning you start feeling the Joy of your being, because in your heart resides the Spirit. And Spirit is the source of joy. It is the source of absolute truth. So you know also absolute truth. Because on your fingertips you can ask any question say, they might say “was Christ the son of God? Alright? Ask the questions – immediately you start getting tremendous vibrations.
Surprisingly Athena is also called as Pallas, Pallas means vibrations, means she gives vibrations, you see. So these vibrations will tell you the absolute truth. Because we live in relative world, that’s why we are fighting. Once we are in the absolute, there is no fight, no problems. Now, this once happens you become collectively conscious, then who is the other? Everybody is within your body. You can feel everyone within yourself so you become a universal personality. This is the character of your Spirit, because Spirit is the reflection of God Almighty within you, which is in everyone.
But it is just a witness till you are a realized soul. But once you become a realized soul then it starts manifesting.It manifests and you can also raise the Kundalini of others. You can give realization to others. It’s like if you enlighten one candle, that candle can enlighten another candle. So that’s how it spreads.
Interviewer: It is very interesting. And while You are talking I am writing down certain things that come in contrast to what we are used to in this so-called western world. I am wondering this split between body and mind that we suffer. That is something that you do not suffer of. It is wonderful how people in the Far East and of course their Spirit is not schizophrenic.
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Interviewer: How do You explain, and how can people come back together with their own either body or mind, because now in this part of the world, there is people who live for their bodies or who live for their minds.
Shri Mataji: They are ignorant. That’s why they are in darkness, you see. They think body is very important but I know people who have very good bodies also come to me, saying “Mother, give us peace”, you see, “give us joy”. So nobody seems to be satisfied. So, they are ignorant…
Interviewer: (interferes) It’s the other part which is missing.
Shri Mataji: Yes. But with this the whole thing gets integrated: your body, mind, your liver, your ego, everything – and the ego just disappears. You become egoless. You don’t think you are doing anything. You think it’s happening, it’s just happening.
Interviewer: There is another idea that this sort of a deep research brings you into the state of absolute and maybe this absolute is a monistic idea, you feel by yourself or the whole world is yourself. Now listening to You I get the impression that it is exactly the opposite, that you communicate with everybody so it’s more of a communal approach than something which is lonely. And it is – it is a miracle how by coming into yourself you reach out everybody else. Now I think You would agree with me that it is wrong to think of Orient as something mystic, as something which is cut off the world.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no, it’s universal. Now we have 56 nations we are working with this Sahaja Yoga. Specially in Russia surprisingly we have thousands and thousands of Sahaja Yogis.
Interviewer: Very recently?
Shri Mataji: Yes, very recently, about three years. Within three years we’ve got thousands and thousands of them. You see, I think in the democratic countries we had too much time to waste. Like you see choices, this, that, all kinds of problems for nothing at all. While they were limited and they had given up all this nonsense. They thought now, whatever is available is available, like, you see there is no solution, So give it up. And that’s how they are very introspective I think. So Russia has – Russia and also Eastern Block people are in thousands, who got realization.
Also of course India they know it, so we have in thousands also, I must admit that; but so many countries like Austria, Italy specially is now so fed up with all that’s going on in Italy, that now they have taken to Sahaja Yoga very strongly, and all kinds of people are coming. So it is something that has to happen, was to happen, is already predicted, and it’s taking place.
Interviewer: And tell me – we are referring to countries with a very strong tradition in religion, say Italy is a very strong Catholic country, Russia has an orthodox past. How about the very different systems like Africa, or like the United States of America? That, You know, this is the new world in terms of a sharp difference in the way of thinking and approaching the world. How is Your message delivered there?
Shri Mataji: You see, actually all these incarnations whether it was Christ, or Rama, Krishna, Mohammed, any one of them…
Interviewer: You call them incarnations of…
Shri Mataji: All of them were incarnations, you see – they were born on the same tree of life, of spirituality. All of them, like beautiful flowers at different times. But people plucked the flowers, you see, and now they are fighting with the dead flowers. So you see that there is though religion within it’s just outside, you see. We’ll go to church, we can do anything, we can go to a mosque we can do anything, we go to temple, do anything. I mean, there’s nothing inside the religion, but with this the inside religion is awakened, and you become righteous, really you become an angel, I tell you.
Interviewer: So tell me, you become an angel, but you still live in this world…
Shri Mataji: Live in this world.
Interviewer: …and You know there is some things that we have – we are used in referring when we talk about religions. And I am wondering whether we can refer to this way of approaching of truth and viewing the world as we already know and I’m trying to refer to certain fixed ideas. Religions have ethics, and they have codes of living, codes of how you behave, how you make love, what is a sin, what is not a sin. Now what is Your approach on all these things?
Shri Mataji: See, My approach is such that by all, see, they have failed completely. Nobody does that. (Interviewer laughs) Really, it’s a fact (Shri Mataji laughs), we should face it. Actually when it is within you, then you become your own master, you yourself know, like, I would say an example: supposing I’m holding a snake and there’s darkness, I can’t see him. Now you tell me it’s a snake. I will not accept, I’ll say “No, no, it’s not a snake, I’m holding a rope, supposing”. But if there is little light I’ll immediately leave it. You don’t have to tell me anything.
In the same way then, when you are enlightened you see for yourself. We have seen people overnight giving up – overnight giving up drugs. Overnight. Once they get realization just I don’t have to tell them. They themselves do it because they have their own light, their own power.
Interviewer: What is a sinner or a failing person, for Your way of approach?
Shri Mataji: You see it is our ego which tells us that this is sin, this is not a sin, this is sin.
Interviewer: It is our ego.
Shri Mataji: And also conditionings, you see. Both things are there that they say this is a sin. For some Muslim this is a sin, for a Hindu this is a sin. How can there be different types of sin? Sin could be – has to be universal, isn’t it after all, if it is a sin. So when you get your realization, you realize that you are now above everything else and you just don’t do anything wrong, just you don’t do it. You don’t like it, you just don’t do it.
Interviewer: But, You see, we have created a world that we have constructed this wrong, I mean, say, you are a Muslim and you have a right in marrying two, four women and in our system this is not accepted. Now, how can you know – how can You know whether this is correct or not?
Shri Mataji: Now see, at that time, when Mohammed Sahib was there, you see He was attacked, it was a tribe and tribes were attacked all the time. And all the young people died and I mean, there were very few men left and he didn’t want prostitution. So he thought is best is – now the – let men can marry women who are now without marriages. So he believed in the marriage and he said, “you should marry”. Now there were some young girls also, they couldn’t get husbands he said “Still you should marry”, otherwise they would have become prostitutes. So to get rid of that thing he said “Alright”. It is what we call in Sanskrit “samayachar”: according to the time the incarnations act.
For example at this time of mine my work is to give realization, that’s all. My, My only job is to give realization to people, so I have to do that. So this is the time – every – like in a growth of a tree, you see, first there are roots, and then there are shoots and then gradually it grows and it comes to a point when it becomes, say the flowers. So I call it a blossom time, because so many flowers are becoming fruits. So the time has come. Is a time which is ripen for this new age to come in. And without that we cannot solve the problem of our world.
Interviewer: I think it is a very pragmatic and very human way [Shri Mataji: “Of course”] of approaching life, and You are right; but let me, let me insist on that. I have, you know, in front of me a Holy Mother with the signs of the way, say, men treat women, you have a very obvious sign that you are married. I’m wondering, does this way of approaching the world affect the relations between men and women? What is the opinion of…
Shri Mataji: No, marriage is very important.
Interviewer: Marriage is very important.
Shri Mataji: For us, you see, marriage is very important. This year we had 86 international marriages. Eighty-six.
Interviewer: What do You mean international? Mixed, ok.
Shri Mataji: International, between different countries. I mean, one Greek lady was married to a French man, see?
Interviewer: I see.
Shri Mataji: So – and their children are realized souls, most of them are, very surprising, they are very beautiful children they get. But out of these marriages we – we should say one percent or two percent there’s problem still. But otherwise they are all very successful marriages, beautiful marriages and they enjoy it. That’s a part of life, one has to marry, all this nonsense of not marrying and doing all these things I don’t believe in it, because it’s a natural thing, whatever is natural has to be there.
Interviewer: And do You think that, say, the way that people get married in the Jewish tradition is different than the way they married in the Methodist tradition – now would You then accept all these methods that people have, or they are used to, or they are born in?
Shri Mataji: Of what?
Interviewer: Or how people get married, according to Your lifestyle?
Shri Mataji: You see, in our lifestyle, what we do now, supposing somebody wants to marry somebody, it’s alright. If they come and tell me: “Mother, I want to marry somebody” it’s alright, but we see the vibrations and things. And also I mean there should not be too much disparity and all that, but as we say “alright”. But supposing they want that we should select for them, say it is so. Then, what we do, one month they are together in one tour we have.
In that we, we see their vibrations, we see their aptitudes, we have forms to say what is your aptitude, would you like to go to another country, what country you like, what’s your height is, what’s your education, and what’s, where have you been before for seeking, and all that – so we get all the complete bio data of that person. And then we suggest that such and such a person will be alright. In one month they see the person, if he/she suits or not – if they don’t they inform, then they can have another choice, whichever way they like. But it is not at random. We little bit guide them because they should also know the background of the person, what sort of a person he is – just you don’t fall in love like that, so again you get into trouble.
And I mean, it has worked very well, because it’s such an understanding that they are marrying a person whom they know very well, and also they are marrying a person who will – who has got these angelic qualities, you see, so they do not fail.
Interviewer: And when they actually realize that after all this training, and after all this hard time you give them – for their good, for their sake of their happiness, certainly – that they suit each other, how do they get married: according to their own traditions or according to a Hindu tradition?
Shri Mataji: No, we have what is a Sahaja Yoga style of marriage.
Interviewer: There is a mystery as we call it.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no mystery at all, there is no mystery in Sahaja Yoga. We talk about all the centers, take the name of all the centers, and all the deities on the centers, and then we say “Now by these centers you have to be married”; and that’s how they have to promise that they will look after their centers, they’ll look after their life in a way that should be righteous and that’s how they get married. We have open system. There is no mystery in Sahaja Yoga. No mystery.
Interviewer: You see it is very, is very tempting the way that You approach the world because it gives you no doubt that there is no… nothing in darkness.
Shri Mataji: No, no.
Interviewer: Now, let me take another phenomenon which is very old but very modern. We talk about love and people matching with each other. There is two men that want to get, to live together and we call them homosexuals, what is your, the way You approach that?
Shri Mataji: I think it’s rather unnatural. Also I have seen people who had this kind of problems, they came to Me, they were possessed. A man was possessed by a woman so he wanted to have a man, you see, but once the possession went away he became very normal. Men are very easy – they take to married life very easily. Women I think if they are homosexuals then it takes some time to get alright, I don’t know. Maybe emotionally they feel disturbed or whatever it is! But men are absolutely alright.
Interviewer: How would You describe normal and natural?
Shri Mataji: Normal person is that a man wants to marry a woman, is normal. In India we cannot even conceive this, I’ve never known before this kind of have happens, you see.
Interviewer: Do You think it hasn’t happened or we don’t know of it?
Shri Mataji: No, no, we… Maybe in India they might be doing something. But we had never known anyone like that, when I was in the medical studies also, I never knew that such things.
Interviewer: I am sure that now that You come, You go around the world and…
Shri Mataji: Now of course after coming to the West then we’ve discovered all this…
Interviewer: Of course it doesn’t happen only among men, it happens among women as well.
Shri Mataji: Yeah – but I think you see, maybe there may be some reasons, also I met one gentleman who was a guard of the Queen and he became homosexual because his wife was very nasty (interviewer laughs), and she tortured him very much. So…
Interviewer: So You think there is always an explanation, something bad happening.
Shri Mataji: Yes, so he thought that it’s better to have a man, you see, no problems, no quarrelling. That’s how he became, but when he came to Sahaja Yoga and he got completely transformed he got a nice wife, now he is having children, he is very happy. So I think it is abnormal conditions and problems that people take to this sometimes. There are many reasons for that but it can be corrected if they want to. If they don’t want you cannot force it. You cannot force Self realization on anyone.
Interviewer: But you can accept them as people who try and to achieve purity…
Shri Mataji: Yes, if they want to… But once they come to Sahaja Yoga they change automatically.
Interviewer: Can they remain unchanged on these aspects?
Shri Mataji: So far we didn’t have anyone like that.
Interviewer: I see. Now tell me about confession. It is, it is something that we are familiar in Christianity. There is someone like, automatically when you hear about a Holy Mother for instance there comes a time that there is some hierarchy. Now how is the hierarchy between mortals in …
Shri Mataji: No, we don’t have anything like that. You see, when they come to Sahaja Yoga mostly the Christians, Catholics and all that, they send Me such thick letters describing what all wrong they have done, this, that – I don’t ever read it, I just burn it off. It’s not important.
Interviewer: (laughs) You should return them, see.
Shri Mataji: You see, you see, yes, it’s no good. Because you see past is past, finished now. Forget it. Why – it’s over.
Interviewer: But how can they not repeat them, if, You know, if they are not aware that this is wrong or there is something that they should pay attention…
Shri Mataji: You see, what happens that it’s all a game of the ego and conditioning. The ego goes on telling: “You did this wrong, you did that wrong”, they feel guilty all the time. There’s no need to feel guilty or anything. It just works out, you see, you are human beings. After all only human beings can commit mistakes, you are not gods, what is there to be so much angry with yourself for that?
Just you should know that you can become the Spirit which is a pure thing. Like we say that in the pond, you see, when you are in the pond there can be worms and all sorts of things, but when you become the lotus you are fragrant, you are above it, nothing can spoil you. In the same way you get that life, eternal life. So…
Interviewer: But it’s true, but who tells you whether you are right or wrong?
Shri Mataji: You yourself.
Shri Mataji: You see, I don’t have to tell you because you feel it yourself that goodness within you, you feel it yourself.
Interviewer: You mean that when you are right you feel it …
Shri Mataji: You feel it.
Interviewer: Even when you are wrong you feel it.
Shri Mataji: Not normally, you see, right and wrong is a different concept. It is like this that you feel, when you get this thing you feel within yourself that you know the absolute, because you can use it. Say now, supposing somebody is suffering from a cancer, now you put your hands to that person, ask – now what happens you know the chakras which are catching. Immediately you know the person has cancer. He may not know, doctors may not know, but you know. Then you ask the question about yourself: “What’s… Is it alright?”. You can ask, because you are now one with the absolute truth. So there is no question of anybody telling you about it, you just know.
Like people will come and tell Me: ‘Mother, see, this Agnya chakra is catching”. Is the, is the centre of Christ. That means that person is suffering from ego. But we never say “I am suffering from ego” normally.
Interviewer: Especially from ego we don’t.
Shri Mataji (Laughing): No, no, no-one says that. (Interviewer laughs) So now when, what happens that when you come and tell Me that “my Agnya is catching” means that you have ego, alright, this, it can be corrected…
Interviewer: It can be corrected.
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course.
Interviewer: Now we are dealing with treating the consciousness and health. Now what is a miracle to You?
Shri Mataji: What is a?
Interviewer: What is a miracle? Does it mean anything or is just…